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| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 13 2012, 08:21 PM (2,195 Views) | |
| Swifty | Jan 20 2012, 01:15 AM Post #51 |
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The Mustang II is a Mustang too!
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And '80s Transformers, Cabbage Patch Kids, Beanie Babies... and even the original Hot Wheels cars in the early '70s after the switch from Spectraflame paints to the enamals. Oddly enough those early enamal cars are now among the hardest to find and most valuable of all Hot Wheels. |
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| Derby Driver 60 | Jan 20 2012, 01:19 AM Post #52 |
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Station Wagon
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I think the window will be there since they added bars on it. But I talked to Tom and this image is a prototype, so the wheels will be painted more accurately
Edited by Derby Driver 60, Jan 20 2012, 01:20 AM.
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| juantoo3 | Jan 20 2012, 02:28 AM Post #53 |
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Enamel Redlines are their own little sub-division. During the spectraflame era, few enamels outside of the GP cars, and even some of those, are actually quite rare. The next phase, when spectraflame was done away with, saw some of the rarest cars due to flagging sales (from the economic climate), which coincidentally happen to be enamels. And then there's the Shell giveaways, another subset, and which were enamels. So if by "early enamal cars" you happen to be referring to the '73 issues, three of which were new models introduced that year and not used again (except the sweet 16, which was reintroduced for the 30th anniversary), that was because of the economic times, not the type of paint...they didn't sell well initially, because folks had more important things to spend their money on at the time. Even castings made in '73 but that were introduced earlier (the Mercedes comes to mind for illustration, although there were others) were released in enamels at that time too, and those are some of the more rare varieties of those castings as well, although the price guides don't always reflect that. Having said all this, the green enamel Custom VW Bug is one example of an enamel redline that dates in the spectra era, well sought, typically in the $50 plus range, minty examples $100 plus. There is a red enamel McLaren (the regular issue was orange), I've only seen two and one of those was a wreck. And of course, the white Camaro, of which only three are documented that I've heard of. http://www.thetoypeddler.com/cgi-bin/ttp/ttpdetail_2.cgi?item_id=1203002 This is an old listing from TTP, the car is no longer available, placed for sale only for a limited time and the seller moved on. The price may be a big part of the reason why...and this is from the spectra era, and trumps all but the most rare of the '73 issues (hot pink enamel SuperFine Turbine). The SFT still does well, and even well worn examples bring $30 minimums pretty easily, and up from there...but the other two 73 only issues (Double Header and Sweet 16) only bring handsome sums if they are in very good to exceptional condition. I've picked up Sweet 16 wrecks for $10-15 bucks, and can get pretty much all I could want in that range...not so with the SFT. Double Headers are even less desired. Forgive the late night ramble, let me see if I can tie this to the subject at hand. I understand the bottom falling out of the market...comic books, beanie babies, hummels, dutch tulips. I'm not sure that applies in quite the same way to Hot Wheels. Certainly they were more affordable in times past, but spectra HW have been in demand since their inception. Enamel HW, other than the few rarities I pointed to, have not fared as well, and even now some 30 year old cars, in excellent plus condition, can be had quite inexpensively...although some models seem to be regaining just a bit of popularity as the spectras become increasingly rare. I've always had just a bit of wonder how when economic times get tough, the bottom seems to fall out of collectibles...except for spectra HW and some early MBX. Those two...and only those two that I've noticed...seem *almost* recession proof. Having said that, the bottom will fall out tomorrow and I'll go on a spending spree! Edited by juantoo3, Jan 20 2012, 02:40 AM.
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| Swifty | Jan 20 2012, 02:38 AM Post #54 |
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The Mustang II is a Mustang too!
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The '73s are what I refer to. What I have read in the various Hot Wheels books is that a lot of collectors quit the hobby in '73 after the switch. Dumped their collections and moved on (which flooded the market with earlier Spectraflames as well). I wasn't there, didn't live through it, but I thought the economic crisis only started later in the year 1973 after a certain oil embargo went into effect. Anything 1973 is supposedly harder to find because sales were poorer and most went to kids instead of collectors, and the kids obviously thrashed them more than the collectors would have. |
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| juantoo3 | Jan 20 2012, 02:49 AM Post #55 |
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Well...the first collectors *were* kids! Adults...as a rule...didn't fool with them yet. MBX were in vogue for the adult collectors. But you had kids that played with them...played the heck out of them...and trashed them. And then you had kids that took care of them and collected them because they were pretty and their folks that collected MBX didn't fool with them. But as kids do, they grow up, interests change and they move on. I remember the neighbor kid had a collection someone today would fawn over, he kept his stuff nice and he had a little pocket money...and he wouldn't let me play with them! That collection today would conservatively be worth in the thousands of dollars. And he got a little older, put them away, then moved away, and that was that. I'm sure there was the occasional adult collector, but they probably picked up a carded piece or two and stuck them in with their MBX collection. |
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| Dragnet_Supporter | Jan 20 2012, 12:31 PM Post #56 |
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SUV
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Bill--and anyone else interested, I haven’t really purchased any comics since I left the business years ago. And though we might be getting slightly OT here, I heard that DC was starting everything over again at issue #1, but haven’t heard too much about their reasoning behind this. However, since this story will give a personal account of just how screwed up corporate thinking can be, and how too many hands in the pie can make both creators, and collectors pay for their pettiness, those who are interested may want to read on. Those who want to read strictly about diecast can feel free to skip it if they so choose. I’ll keep names out of this, since this is a public forum, and I’ll endeavor to explain in layman’s terms, as much as possible. DC comics, owners of such superheroes as Batman, Superman, and the Justice League, have run into problem with continuity before (meaning simply that the story lines for their characters was felt to be too confusing to keep straight). They tried to straighten all this out before, beginning with a huge story called “Crisis of Infinite Earths,” wherein things would begin anew from that point forward, without having to start everything from scratch at issue #1. On the other hand, this new beginning with issue #1 might also be in part that first issues tend to sell, and this might bring in new collectors who feel they can collect everything from issue #1 on, and have complete collections from that point onward without having to play catch up on back issues and storylines. Also, I’m sure, hoping that such a radical move might start one of those high spikes in sales that we talked about earlier, if this generates enough press, or word of mouth.. Now here’s the real story, at least up to the point I was privy to such behind the scenes stuff. DC, unlike Marvel and other comic book companies, has a very old guard (yes we could say Stan Lee himself is of the old guard, but he's a very innovative member, to say the least), some of which have been in the business longer than most comic companies have been around. The old guard naturally wants to preserve the way they did things, or have their personal ideas/contributions remain in tact. How this limits creative ideas, and pollutes those waters is that Creator X comes up with a really good Batman story for a mini-series (which is basically a 4-6 issue story that exist on it‘s own outside of whatever is happening in a character‘s regular monthly series). Old guard (be it editor, or publisher) says, “You can’t do that story because in batman’s regular series, he’s in China for several months, and your story takes place back in Gotham City. Sorry pal.” Of course, the readers aren’t going to figure both stories are happening simultaneously, but this is the old guards way of saying they either they don’t like the story, don’t like Creator X personally, or just plain exercising their vote of power--which, if truth be told, happens more than is probably necessary. Now comes along Creator Y, and he’s has a reputation that sells books like hotcakes. Creator Y’s Batman story gets a green light on that basic, but old guard doesn’t agree with this decision, they just have to go with it because of the numbers. Over the years, too many Creator Y stories have slipped into the mix, and the old guard says, “Look at all these stories that we need to make part of our continuity. How can we possibly fit this in, or explain this, or that, and keep our story lines straight?” Meaning, old guard is attempting to keep the characters within their parameters, but the public just can’t let go of Creator Y’s version of our character, and it’s a needle in our side. So instead of just marching forward with good character based stories from that point, enter “Crisis of Infinite Earths” where they can say, “All those Creator Y ideas just do not exist in our reality any longer." This of course will be denied profusely due to the fact that DC had decades of writers and Creator Ys to account for, and going back all those decades, it just can’t be cohesivle tied together, see? Which would be like trying to tie in X, Y and Z’s runs on the book 10 or 20 years ago, their visions of the character together, and still have it fit with the old guards approval. But as creators, don’t we all ride on the shoulders of who came before us? Aren’t even the old guard guilty of this? Yes, but the old guard rode on the shoulders of the legends. And they just cannot see all the Creator Ys since fitting into such legendary status. See, most editors are ex-comic book fans who can’t draw, or write (some do, but those among the minority), so they have to sit on the sidelines and snipe at all who go against the grain of what they feel it’s all about--much like some collectors on message boards at times. Then comes the big lull in comics after the surge of popularity in sales during the 90’s we spoke of in previous posts. DC hires a new projects editor in order that they might find new talent, and stories that would stand out from the pack--and hopefully sell. Creator X (remember him, they guy who was shot down because old guard didn’t like him, or his idea, and he didn’t have the popularity of Creator Y, so he went away discouraged) comes back with his cool Batman idea and submits it to the new projects editor. The new projects editor loves his story, it’s fresh, it’s cool, it finally gets submitted for a possible green light on the project. Old guard comes along who still have their petty dislike of Creator X, or his idea, and they turned it down once already, right? So they say, “No go on this project!” New projects editor is confused. He says, “This is a great story. I don’t understand why your shooting this down.” Old guard, with nothing tangible in terms of reason, fall back on what they’ve always fallen back on. They say, “The reason we can’t do this story is because it has Batman in Gotham City. And in his regular series, Batman is going to be in China for several months?” New projects guy says, “WTF???? Why can't I do the job I was hired to do?” And it becomes a power struggle, a tug of war that only DC comics could perpetrate for reasons only the elite of the old guard can understand. And who pays for it? Creator X, for one, because he can’t figure out why they seem to hate him so. The collectors who are crying for better Batman stories never get to see the story to judge for themselves. DC Comics as a whole is scratching their heads and saying, “We just can’t figure out what the public wants.” Corporate is cutting more titles because the numbers are too low. And the creators who remain are told they had better do their best, meet their deadlines and don’t screw up because you can be replaced on a dime with all the people currently out of work. And the nervousness, the "fear factor" that ends up trickling down from what both corporate, and the old guard feels that all this puts them in a great position to demand more for less from their workers, who end up turning out a sub-par product because who can do their best work with gun to their head? Somewhere in this picture, I suppose Tom Z. and his crew have found themselves over the years. And it becomes very tough after a while for the best of creators to pull back from all the hype and just enjoy their work enough to put out consistent good product. Because every coporation in America has picked up this same loaded gun in recent years. What they don't realise, can't admit to themselves because they'd look like utter fools, or are just too egotistical, is that they all have accidently shot themselves in the foot. Edited by Dragnet_Supporter, Jan 20 2012, 12:40 PM.
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| juantoo3 | Jan 20 2012, 05:49 PM Post #57 |
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Amen, brother! |
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| Billy Kingsley | Jan 20 2012, 08:54 PM Post #58 |
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The Mad Documenter!
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I think I know just who you are refrencing...To not get sidetracked too much, the new guy they brought in to run it in the mid 2000s, after Jenette Kahn retired, hates the history...he has said this essentially...the Golden Age in particular...he wanted to relaunch continuity since day one, and he finally did it. Part of the reason it was done now is because they finally had the technology to offer them online at the same time...and that aspect has already failed so miserably that they are not going to go forward with it like they had been. To anybody who may not be following along when we mention continuity...imagine if Ford stopped making the Mustang. And no only did they stop making it, they stop even acknowledging that the Mustang ever existed in the first place. Then they use the same basic sheetmetal concept, call it something totally different, and say it's brand new, but it's arguably inferior. Now, those of us who are diehard Mustang fans...we would not take that well...no? That's why I gave up DC this past year, even though I had my first comic read to me at literally 5 days old in 1984. |
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| Firehawk73 | Jan 20 2012, 08:56 PM Post #59 |
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Dragnet, thats an interesting spill and some of the points you made concerning writers and artists, I totally agree. As for the crisis books I think it is mainly that the characters themselves are pretty old. If the books stayed in contuinity from the begining, you would have had several generations of Batman by this time and I don't that would sell to many comic books. It would be easier to so call reinvent the characters after so many decades to keep the same character in that role. We all know that Bruce Wayne is Batman. No one else can really properly fill that cowl like he can. So changing the core character would might bring in new blood but loose a generation at the same time. With the kids into video games now days that would not be such a good way to go. So starting things over is another way to keep the core characters fresh and exciting to the new generation of collectors and keeping the older generation of collectors from leaving. |
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| Dragnet_Supporter | Jan 22 2012, 02:49 PM Post #60 |
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SUV
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True, many of these characters date back to the 1940s. However, all the crisis books and resetting back to first issues won't really change that history. Many fans who collected a title for years become enraged when this sort of thing happens--simply because it is ignoring the history they love. Plus every generation, every new run on a book, is like taking a different movie on a given subject and giving it to another director. Unless DC keeps such a tight, limiting hold, as they have tried to do at times with their characters, they are bound to come to the point where they are either passe, or end up with more continuity errors that needs fixing. It's a temporary solution at best. And one that could just as easily be fixed by saying, "Okay, here's the current parameters for the characters as we see them, or that fans seem to like--or most importantly (to them), what sells. Let's just move forward and keep it tight." To try to incorporate all the different generations and incarnations into one solid stream of continuity is superfluous at best. But hey, if DC feels the need to keep cracking that whip, retooling and readjusting every few years, more power to them. To me, they come across much like RC2 has with many diecast collectors. They have an abundance of great characters, and only a handful ever (even if so breifly) live up to their full potential. But I suppose we can say that about comics in general. There are never really "good books," only "good runs," depending on who the creative team happens to be, and how much control they are given to do their thing. Not that I wanted to turn this thread into a comic book discussion. I simply wanted to illustrate that some type of this same cretinous decision making is going on in every company that falls under a corporate umbrella. The circumstances may be a little different, but with so many chiefs, the end product rarely turns out exactly like it was originally intended by whoever originally came up with the idea. And sometimes the idea might not make it out of the conference room, or office where it was first given voice. It can be a frustrating process. Edited by Dragnet_Supporter, Jan 22 2012, 02:55 PM.
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