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How do you ID a car?; Or, Is there a field guide to 1/64 scale diecast?
Topic Started: Dec 16 2013, 12:42 PM (1,098 Views)
toyotageek
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Japanese Minicar Maniac
I've been in this hobby for a bunch of years now, but I'm still learning stuff everyday, and then forgetting it 10 seconds later.

I'm guessing the IDing of cars comes easy for guys like Dean, Kimmo & Crafty, but for many more of us it's totally hit & miss and we wind up asking for help from the 'experts'.

So I was thinking & wondering ....

Do you guys know what a field guide is?.... you know, the type they have for birds, or reptiles or flowers. Many of these use identification charts where you must answer a question about one or more features (characters), narrowing down your choise until you are able to pinpoint your subject. For example, a step in a botanical key may ask about the color of flowers, or the disposition of the leaves along the stems. A key for insect identification may ask about the number of bristles on the rear leg.

So, what I'm wondering... is there any sort of ID chart for "unknown" diecast? Most obvious things to consider would be the base, the wheels, etc... If not, someone should make one! Think of what a great resource it would be for us... or not, maybe it just wouldn't work with our little cars.
:computer:
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jedimario
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RAWR
Wheels are a pretty easy place to start, but once you look at these things enough you notice trends in quality and shapes from certain makers as well.
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Hosspower98
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Forever Blue Oval
LOL! When I first started reading this I read IDing as iDing. Naturally I thought it was a new Apple product that I didn't know about. What a nincompoop I am at times.
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craftymore
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Support your local demo derby.

If you have been around the hobby long enough, you end up picking up on patterns on wheels, casting quality and different symbols used on the base. 6 dot wheels usually are Yatming wheels and 8 dots typically are Welly sourced and those are typically two of the most common 'no name' brands asked about. Dave and Kimmo's excellent Encyclopedia of Small Scale Diecast is about the nearest I can think of to ID a great number of cars. A small pocket sized book though that would contain wheel types and what some bases look like would be handy while at a toy show/flea markets. I kinda wonder though how many would end up buying something like that? Better yet, that would cut out the middle man identifiers here on the Garage! :lol: We can't have that. :wave:
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toyotageek
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Japanese Minicar Maniac
Thanks for the comments guys!

My problem is I don't see these off-brand models everyday, so by the time the next one rolls along, I forget what the key traits are (I've just finally started labeling them, so I know what I'm looking at when I do look at them). Funny, because I was always good with identifying birds and reptiles, but my memory and skills for identifying diecast & minicars isn't that great for some reason.

I love Kimmo & Dave's book. It is very good for it's coverage of so many brands, but it's not what I'd call and identification guide.

As far as putting an identification guide out in book form, I don't think it'd be worth it. Sales would probably be too small... best thing to do would be to have an online guide in one, or multiple locations. Maybe I'll try to tackle it one day, with the help of the experts here of course. :thumbup:
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craftymore
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Support your local demo derby.

For anyone reading this, we do have a wide and large ranging sets of casting lists/databases here on the Garage.



Yatming Casting List

This isn't an all encompassing set of picture lists but it's as comprehensive as you'll find anywhere on the internet.

Swifty's Garage Database Link Page
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juantoo3
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I've actually had in mind to maybe put together images of typical wheel types to add to the database to aid in identifying....just never got around to it. The idea came from seeing that one style wheel on so many different brands of diecast...I could almost swear at least that style of wheel was outsourced by various diecast makers.
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toyotageek
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Japanese Minicar Maniac
juantoo3
Dec 17 2013, 12:28 AM
I've actually had in mind to maybe put together images of typical wheel types to add to the database to aid in identifying....just never got around to it. The idea came from seeing that one style wheel on so many different brands of diecast...I could almost swear at least that style of wheel was outsourced by various diecast makers.
Great idea. Same thing I was thinking after checking Crafty's link for the Swifty's Garage Database. After looking through some of the database, I was trying to figure what would make a good ID guide. Creating a dichotomous key could get complicated, but a photo guide to wheels should be much easier. :thumbup:
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clem24
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Station Wagon
I can't say I've ever cared for the cheap looking cheap off brands. And by cheap looking I mean stuff that looks like current Summer and Yat castings with really cheap plastic, ugly tampos/decos, and usually comes in huge sets for cheap. The ones I won't pass up are the older Yat castings (especially with metal bases) and the Zyll and Zylmex stuff (and especially the really good Tomica copies).

Having said that, it's quite fascinating seeing off brand stuff that most collectors ignored, being ID'ed here.
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juantoo3
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

toyotageek
Dec 17 2013, 09:50 AM
juantoo3
Dec 17 2013, 12:28 AM
I've actually had in mind to maybe put together images of typical wheel types to add to the database to aid in identifying....just never got around to it. The idea came from seeing that one style wheel on so many different brands of diecast...I could almost swear at least that style of wheel was outsourced by various diecast makers.
Great idea. Same thing I was thinking after checking Crafty's link for the Swifty's Garage Database. After looking through some of the database, I was trying to figure what would make a good ID guide. Creating a dichotomous key could get complicated, but a photo guide to wheels should be much easier. :thumbup:
Wheels are probably the biggest clue. A lot of times, more than half, a model's maker can be guessed by the wheels. But there is plenty of gray area and sometimes wheels (or at least the designs) can cross over to other makers. Next up is the base...but then a lot of bases are generically embossed or even just stickered "made in china" and that's it.

Then it gets tricky. Each of the marginal makers seems to have a distinctive style. Some omit interiors, some don't make a rear window, some slather in garish tampos, some try to meticulously copy...to a point...the work of someone else-just enough to get away with it. Knowing which makers do what goes a long, long way in helping identify the off brands.

Now, Dean here is just flat plain familiar with them all...I think he's got practically every copy of every casting ever made by anybody in his collection...and he can pull them out at a moment's notice. He's our resident savant when it comes to "generic" castings. But others like Kimmo S. and Dave Weber have contributed greatly to general knowledge in how to pinpoint various makers.

I don't know them all, and never really even tried. I like what I like and go from there. I do have a few oddballs that otherwise I probably would do without, but for whatever reason they charmed me. So I have a smattering of Summer, a handful of Tintoys (or Tinstoys, they are different and I don't keep them straight in my head), and a bit of this and a bit of that and that's how I got into obscure diecast...from a distance.

High Speed on the other hand, has charmed me considerably. I very much like the Readers Digest classic cars, and the Fire Engines are pretty cool. The oldtimers are pretty generic looking, there are four oldtimer trucks which I presume are High Speed but could possibly be Corgi Cameos, I just never chased it out as neither is too important to collectors, and some rail cars that are actually pretty decent. High Speed also made a few series for others like Malibu for Wally, and a whole laundry list for Grell, many of which models have not appeared in packaging intended for the American market. So I tend to count High Speed along with Yatming and Zee as one of those prolific makers that wholesaled to a lot of other folks, but unlike Yat and Z never really got around to marketing directly themselves.
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Dean-o-mite
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Muscle Car
I have committed most of the brands to memory, just from having bought them myself, and remembering the brand on the package when I bought them. With that memory bank, I can attribute castings I haven't seen before, to a specific brand based on the traits Wes provided (wheels, build quality, style of tampos). Kimmo was a huge influence for me. I have known him personally since about 1997 or 1998, and been to his residence and seen many of his cars, several times. Kimmo keeps examples of most cars in package, and I have added to my knowledge bank, based on seeing cars in packages, from his collection.
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James
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Mr.Bowtie
I would love to see a wheel chart for all those off brands, There is an exhaustive wheel guide at South Tesax diecast for Hotwheels, and a Johnny Lightning one at Wyatt's JL site, I have never seen a matchbox wheel guide, But would love to see a multi brand wheel chart including Summer, Yatming, majorette etc etc.

Maybe we could assemble a diecast ID thread here, we have some amazing photo guys, who could really get the detail in a pic, We could have a simple point by point description of ID'ing a brand

i.e. SUMMER..... pictures of the wheels that Summer has used, picture of the base detail, and casting # i.e. S8363F, a little description like whether Summer puts in an interior, whether base or interior is chrome or not, We then could populate a thread with pictures of Summer castings with their casting number and what we determine is the closest car brand the casting resembles.

any thoughts?

I would love to help, I take lousy pictures though, but the text would be fun to put togther, I would need so much help though.

Why don't I post a thread for High Speed or Summer and we can start building a database, some one can take the reins on another brand. Even ID'ing all those off brands is fun and difficult. Mr.Webber's Encyclopedia is a great asset
Edited by James, Dec 23 2013, 12:24 AM.
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craftymore
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Support your local demo derby.

We have a Summer database. http://swiftysgarage.net/forum/3032089/

I'd be game for an off brand wheel database. It would be with great merit as we are constantly asked to ID various off brands. Some are easily identified while others are often a toss up. I can get started snapping pics of wheels tonight.
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Dean-o-mite
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Muscle Car
Wheels are confusing sometimes. The 'famous' Summer 5-point star wheels were also used by Golden Wheel. The Welly 8-trapezoid style wheels were common on several other brands, such as Golden Wheel, T.C., and others.
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James
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Mr.Bowtie
Thats what we need, first narrow it down with the wheels and then go on to another criteria, like window color, casting Numbers, interior, etc etc......
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juantoo3
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Time.

It has not been my friend of late, James. That is the primary reason I have not started the project.

I suppose one could sort through the images here...for instance the profile shots in the Car of the Day section, for wheels...simply copy the image and crop the wheel.

Bases get complicated in a hurry with off-brands. Summer...for instance...started with their logo on the base, a very intricate and beautiful logo I might add. But that didn't last long before it was removed

Yatming has made so many castings sold by so many others with their name on them, short of the casting *numbers* on the base it can be hard to tell a model is in fact Yat if you are not already familiar with them. Similar story for High Speed.

Then you have some really off the wall oddities that still defy who precisely is their maker. For instance, Imperial. Marvelous models considering...but Imperial is an importer and distributor, not a maker. Trouble is, the castings sold as Imperial do not show up anywhere else, so I.D.ing the maker of Imperial models is an exercise in futility, at least until we can make contact with some insider who actually knows who Imperial contracted to.

So even in identifying "generic" castings, there are still obstacles to absolute identification, particularly with models no one cared about when they were new 30 or 40 years ago. Probably 98% of castings can be identified with reasonable accuracy, but that remaining 2% is a best guess.
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juantoo3
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And yes, I would agree the best place to put something like a wheel catalogue would be at the head of the specific database, Summer wheels pinned on the Summer board for instance.
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James
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Mr.Bowtie
Or we can just ask here at Swifty's where some of the world's best diecast identifiers reside......

This place just knocks my socks off when it comes to identifying diecast... Great job fellows
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juantoo3
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Something else to consider....just how Anorak do you want to get in identifying the wheels?

You mentioned not having a guide to MBX wheels...I assure, the list is out there, if you want to shell out the bucks. MBX collectors get extremely Anorak about their wheels. Type, color, material used, diameter, width, tread pattern...and on it goes. Look up a Stannard's guide to see what I mean. Hardcore regular wheel MBX collectors live and die by Stannard's.

As I mentioned earlier, there are some wheel patterns that seem to cross many makers. One design alone I know I have seen on a very wide variety of makers, although I am not absolutely certain as an Anorak would be. I am merely going by appearance.

Of course, a project has to start somewhere...
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juantoo3
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

OK, here's a sample:
http://swiftysgarage.net/topic/7136834/1/#new

All images were pulled from Car of the Day images and cropped. Let me get some input before going any further.
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toyotageek
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Japanese Minicar Maniac
Wow..... didn't check this thread for a few days and see what happens... LOL.
I'm glad to see there's is interest in something like this.

Juantoo3's sample is a good example of what can be done.

One thing I would suggest though is to pin a "generic" wheel guide somewhere like the top of Bay 10 or at the very top of the Database forum, rather than within the various model databases. That way people can go to one location to look at, and compare wheels, and then jump over to the specific brand to narrow their search (hope that makes sense). I still think it might be a good idea to then have a brand specific wheel guide within each brands database - but there should be one "all brands" guide somewhere central...

With the crossover of many wheels from one brand to another, the guide can act as a starting point for people to ID cars... in such cases they can narrow their choices down to 2 or three brands and then look for other features that will hopefully make their search easier.

I'd love to help if & where I can, but I'm sure my collection is tiny compared to many of yours - but if there is anything I can do, let me know.

Anyway, thanks to those of you that know your cars and inspire the rest of us, and thanks to Juantoo3 for getting something started! :thumbup:
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juantoo3
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

toyotageek
Dec 24 2013, 12:33 PM
One thing I would suggest though is to pin a "generic" wheel guide somewhere like the top of Bay 10 or at the very top of the Database forum, rather than within the various model databases. That way people can go to one location to look at, and compare wheels, and then jump over to the specific brand to narrow their search (hope that makes sense). I still think it might be a good idea to then have a brand specific wheel guide within each brands database - but there should be one "all brands" guide somewhere central...

With the crossover of many wheels from one brand to another, the guide can act as a starting point for people to ID cars... in such cases they can narrow their choices down to 2 or three brands and then look for other features that will hopefully make their search easier.
Yeah, I thought about that as I was going. I know the intent of the database here was to serve as a guide for overlooked makes. Makes like Hot Wheels, Matchbox and Johnny Lightning are already comprehensively covered elsewhere on the 'net, so there is no sense in "reinventing the wheel" here for those makes, pardon the pun. Perhaps after we get some guides for the makes in the database, or even as we go along, they could be appended to a generalized guide. There are quite a few makes not covered in the database as well, and perhaps those could be added directly to the guide, but we can cross those bridges as we go.

Right now the most efficient way of using time to do this appears to be "borrowing" pics already in our Car of the Day and cropping them for the wheels, after confirming they are indeed the make intended (a lot of times searches bring up other brands as well when searching due to the nature of conversation on the boards). That can be done by anybody skilled enough with forum searches (I suggest staying at Swiftys for plagiarism concerns), photo editing and an eye for detail.
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toyotageek
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Japanese Minicar Maniac
juantoo3
Dec 24 2013, 02:02 PM


Yeah, I thought about that as I was going. I know the intent of the database here was to serve as a guide for overlooked makes. Makes like Hot Wheels, Matchbox and Johnny Lightning are already comprehensively covered elsewhere on the 'net, so there is no sense in "reinventing the wheel" here for those makes, pardon the pun. Perhaps after we get some guides for the makes in the database, or even as we go along, they could be appended to a generalized guide. There are quite a few makes not covered in the database as well, and perhaps those could be added directly to the guide, but we can cross those bridges as we go.

Yes, I agree - no point in doing the "big" brands as there is already enough coverage elsewhere. Whatever is done here on Swifty's, I think it'd be best to concentrate on the "off" brands.
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juantoo3
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Got a start on Ertl, but I know there are a lot of gaps.

I think this also is a good time to mention what a pain it is when images hosted on photobucket disappear. As a reference guide, the database should *not* have images hosted there. There are too many issues with dumped images, which leaves so many threads useless.

I suggest that such useless threads be deleted, so that others don't waste their time looking for something that no longer exists, and Swiftys doesn't look dumb for not keeping up their own database.

In short...if we are doing this wheel chart anyway, seems to me a good time to spruce up the database, and preferably in my opinion, add images that are not as likely to disappear anytime soon.
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Dean-o-mite
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Muscle Car
That is user error. Someone posting in the database, then moving or deleting their own images in Photobucket. I have a second Photobucket account specifically for COTD pics, and for Database pics, and those pics never get moved or deleted.
I highly suggest others do the same.
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