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| GINGELL | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jun 3 2017, 11:08 PM (1,913 Views) | |
| juantoo3 | Jun 3 2017, 11:08 PM Post #1 |
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![]() These came from Dan. Distributor on the cards is not one I am familiar with, I presume local to the Chicago area. Does anyone know who the diecast maker is for these? ![]() Multiple wheel styles, even one that seems a lot like Kidco, but the pkgs are dated 1993 so definitely not Kidco. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Model List originally posted by Mark F.: Perhaps the one thing that these models have in common is the numbering system. I've put together a list of known models: #701 Mazda RX-7 #702 '84 Camaro Z28 #703 Chevrolet Corvette #704 Porsche 928 #705 '84 Pontiac Firebird #706 Datsun 280ZX #711 Racing Car #712 Racing Car #713 Racing Car #714 Racing Car #715 Racing Car #716 Racing Car #729 Lamborghini Countach #730 Porsche 959 #731 Mercedes 500SEC AMG #732 BMW 325 Baur Cabriolet #733 Ferrari Testarossa #734 Porsche 911 #737 Ford Courier #738A Mercedes-Benz #738B Mercedes-Benz #739A Jaguar XJ-S #740A Nissan 300ZX #740B Nissan 300ZX #741A Honda Prelude #741B Honda Prelude #742 BMW #743 Maserati Merak #744 Ferrari 308 #745 Porsche 944 #752 Ferrari F-40 #753 Ford Mustang #755 Buick LeSabre #756 Pontiac Fiero #804 Maserati Merak SS #808 Ferrari 328 GTS Corrections and additions of course are welcomed. ![]() Added new information from Juantoo3, SeberHusky, Xerocomis, Mark F and EDeKa. Thanks, gentlemen. ![]() Edited by juantoo3, Feb 22 2018, 01:48 PM.
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| craftymore | Jun 3 2017, 11:13 PM Post #2 |
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Support your local demo derby.
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Sorta look like knockoffs or/are of 80s/90s era Summer castings. The yellow BMW is a 635 CSi. Summer BMW 635 CSi Red #26 is a Ferarri 308 which i think is the Summer casting as well. Summer Ferrari 308 Two #944s are Porsche. Summer '86 Porsche 944 Turbo |
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| Harvestman | Jun 4 2017, 02:59 AM Post #3 |
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Captain Slow
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The company responsible for these is known as The 300ZX and Mercedes 500SEC appear to be ill-proportioned Matchbox copies. The Honda Prelude looks like a Road Champs copy. Some of these castings (like the BMWs and the Maserati Merak still in the package) made their way into gift sets - I think they may have been 50-packs. |
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| Mark F. | Jun 4 2017, 09:07 AM Post #4 |
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Minivan
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I think they are Gingell models. They seem to be a cousin to Rhino and Summer. Your models likely have a three-digit number begining with "7" on the base plates. Some may have a letter suffix after the number. For example, your blue 300ZX is probably #740B and your Honda Prelude may be #741A. I think more research needs to be done for this brand. |
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| juantoo3 | Jun 4 2017, 09:40 PM Post #5 |
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OK, got some pics, not all models are processed but I think showing one should help point in the direction. Using the Mercedes as example, yes a 3 digit model number on the base starting with 7, two of the models have a letter suffix at the end but the rest do not. Interior is minimal, if you turn the car right you can look through the side window and out the opposite wheel well...front or back. No dashboard, footboards or rear seats. I did find one more wheel type, a 3 spoke design very similar to the old Majorette. It is on one of the carded models. |
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| Dean-o-mite | Jun 5 2017, 12:36 AM Post #6 |
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Muscle Car
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I am standing with Mark F on the Gingell identification. The yellow Prelude (same tampos, but with wheels as shown on the black Mercedes) is pictured as the example for the Gingell entry in the first edition of the Diecast Motor Vehicles Encyclopedia (by Kimmo, Dave W and Mark F). The written entry discusses a possible tie to Rhino, but other than the copying going on among China diecast companies, there is no known company ties to Summer. |
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| Harvestman | Jun 5 2017, 03:06 AM Post #7 |
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Captain Slow
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Going with Mark as well - I think there was some confusion elsewhere about the difference between Rhino and Gingell. Still can't really tell them apart, but I'm sure there is some way. |
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| juantoo3 | Jun 5 2017, 11:27 AM Post #8 |
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I think the Rhino part has me confused...those I *know* are Rhino look nothing at all like these. The similarity with Summer is obvious, apart from the body being "half" plastic, but that seems a trait of Summer at one point in time as well. Seems the only differentiation between Gingell and Summer for a novice then is the wheels? Possibly the tampos, but without experience that would not serve well to tell them apart as both clearly use artistically similar designs, though specific designs are probably limited to each maker. I guess what I'm asking is how to tell these apart from Summer? And what is the relation to Rhino? All of the confirmed Rhino I have look nothing like these in style, size or format. |
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| juantoo3 | Jun 5 2017, 11:50 AM Post #9 |
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OK, just got done looking through my copy of "the book." Mine must be a later edition, the entry for Gingell shows a Jaguar XJ. Following around all of the "see also:" references it appeared to me inconclusive the ties to Rhino and / or Summer. Summer is and has been so prolific, they are probably behind virtually all of the "cheap, crude" level stuff anyway, at least up to the pancake cars, would be my leaning. Having said that, I did note a Rhino tampo on the hood of one of the cars. Not enough to tie the line to Rhino, but an interesting coincidence. In the book, the example shown for Rhino had one of the typical Rhino style wheels, the sort of steamroller deep dish like found on some 80s era Majorette...nothing even close to anything here. What I find in "my" assortment is a curious mix of wheel styles that mimic lots of others, I mentioned the Kidco "boxfan" and Majorette 3 sp, but the dotted style is familiar from other budget lines and the 5 point star is very reminiscent of Summer...and why when Zack suggested Summer I accepted without question. This helps fuel my thinking that wheels are probably subcontracted, and why some types of wheels turn up on different maker's products. |
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| Mark F. | Jun 5 2017, 12:21 PM Post #10 |
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Minivan
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Perhaps the one thing that these models have in common is the numbering system. I've put together a list of known models: #701 Mazda RX-7 #702 '84 Camaro Z28 #703 Chevrolet Corvette #704 Porsche 928 #705 '84 Pontiac Firebird #706 Datsun 280ZX #711 Racing Car #712 Racing Car #713 Racing Car #714 Racing Car #715 Racing Car #716 Racing Car #729 Lamborghini Countach #730 Porsche 959 #731 Mercedes 500SEC AMG #732 BMW 325 Baur Cabriolet #733 Ferrari Testarossa #734 Porsche 911 #737 Ford Courier #738A Mercedes-Benz #738B Mercedes-Benz #739A Jaguar XJ-S #740A Nissan 300ZX #740B Nissan 300ZX #741A Honda Prelude #741B Honda Prelude #742 BMW #743 Maserati Merak #744 Ferrari 308 #745 Porsche 944 #752 Ferrari F-40 #755 Buick LeSabre #756 Pontiac Fiero Corrections and additions of course are welcomed. ![]() Added new information from Juantoo3 and SeberHusky. Thanks, gentlemen. ![]() |
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| juantoo3 | Jun 5 2017, 02:04 PM Post #11 |
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![]() ![]() ![]() also: ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Because it's still blistered I have no way to know the number for this one, but this is the one with the 3 pt Majo style wheels. My guess was 713, but you show 715 so this might be that instead. We can add 712 to your list as a racing car. Likewise, you show 738B as a Mercedes, here I show 738A as the same. |
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| SeberHusky | Jun 5 2017, 02:06 PM Post #12 |
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Station Wagon
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Rhino never had interiors on their cars. And the metal is usually crude pot-metal and its roughly cast and you often will find it crumbling apart when you get ones that are well-worn. |
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| SeberHusky | Jun 5 2017, 02:10 PM Post #13 |
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Station Wagon
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Assuming the bases aren't direct copies, these might be Summer. The numbers for the F1 cars match up. http://web.archive.org/web/20120303152328/http://www.breithaupts.com/totc349.htm |
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| juantoo3 | Jun 5 2017, 02:18 PM Post #14 |
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OK, but that raises the question of how both Summer and Gingell got into the same batch of packages, probably in the same wholesale case? Not impossible, but highly unlikely without some coordination between the two companies...I think this shows these may actually be Summer afterall, possibly marketed as Gingell (third party?). |
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| juantoo3 | Jun 5 2017, 02:22 PM Post #15 |
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![]() BMW ![]() Porsche 944 ![]() Ferrari ![]() Nissan Z ![]() Honda |
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| Dean-o-mite | Jun 5 2017, 08:37 PM Post #16 |
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Muscle Car
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Some Rhino models do have interiors (separate piece interiors; not seats molded from the base). I own several, including a group that came in a multipack of cars including with and without interiors. And Wes, I can assure you that the Gingell castings are not Summer castings. Most Gingell are unique and were not used under other brands. I agree that the BMW and smaller 80's Mercedes, look similar to Summer, but they are crude copies, at best. The Summer castings of those cars never looked so lumpy and sloppy; even Summer releases of those cars that are newer than these Gingell, are crisper/cleaner. As these packages read, "packaged in the USA," tells me they came in bulk from China, to be put in any company's packaging that wanted to buy them. Motor Force could have been a "packaged in the USA" that included different brands, but is most often associated with Summer. |
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| Mark F. | Jun 6 2017, 07:51 AM Post #17 |
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Minivan
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Your green racing car is #715: ![]()
Edited by Mark F., Aug 5 2017, 10:00 AM.
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| Mark F. | Jun 6 2017, 07:55 AM Post #18 |
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Minivan
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Here is #738B:
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| juantoo3 | Jun 6 2017, 04:15 PM Post #19 |
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Is it possible you may have the Summer versions with the same numbers to compare? This seems a pretty good exercise getting our experts to clarify and distinguish, if someone as respected as Breithaupt (I hope I spelled his name right) has a list assigned as Summer that matches almost exactly to these (the Porsche is missing, not different), yet there is still adamant insistence these are Gingell. Sorry to be a royal pain, I'm simply trying to help those such as myself who are unfamiliar with these to figure out how to identify them. You gotta admit "crude" is in the eye of the beholder, frankly I don't see any significant difference in that regard between these and the handful of Summer I do have, apart from these have the expanded base going up the sides, which similar Summer I have avoided on purpose. I think the only Summer I have knowingly picked up are an early Mustang fastback, a 59 Cadillac Eldorado and a VW Karmann Ghia...nothing at all like any of these, so the only comparison I can make is extremely subjective. Wheels have long been a primary source of narrowing the field of makers, but in this case that is not as certain. The one style does mimic a known Summer design quite well, but the rest are nothing I have seen on Summer before. To my way of thinking, if wheels are subcontracted as I presume, then that aspect of a given run would be dictated by the customer who ordered the batch made, and the maker likely has access to a number of wheel designs available from the subcontractor. I think that like Yatming and probably others, Summer most likely produced for themselves to supply their own wholesale network, but then were also available to produce batches specific to a customer's order. In other words, if this distributor Park went to Summer (or Gingell) and ordered this batch made, they could pick the colors and tampos and wheels. Otherwise, a general batch like you suggested could come over as a trailer full to drop off at a packaging facility to put into the customers corporate packaging. One or the other of these is likely how MarzKarz and others were done. I think it would go a long way if it can be shown the comparable (same number!) Summer could be shown to compare to demonstrate how these differ. |
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| Dean-o-mite | Jun 6 2017, 07:49 PM Post #20 |
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Muscle Car
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I can't promise a time frame, but I will try to get into the Summer cars and show them, but they will not have the numbers on them. My speculation is that Doug Breithaupt's list includes these Gingell cars because of the likely Motor Force packaging. I believe it is an error to include them on a list of Summer castings, but once published, it is hard for anyone else to "prove" that it was an error, when dealing with these Chinese brands, other than pointing to another publication (Encyclopedia), of which I trust the content and authors very much. I respect Doug very much, but have seen occasional errors in the content before. |
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| juantoo3 | Jun 6 2017, 09:04 PM Post #21 |
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Alright, some progress, I think. First, I should have taken a closer look at the links to the database Crafty pointed to...two of them had pics I submitted. Since Dean didn't correct me back when I submitted them, I presume now they are indeed Summer...especially since Summer of this era aren't known for putting their name on their product. So I dug out my pretty little Porsche 944 and my not as pretty but oh so pink Ferrari, and another little green Ferrari to mention later when I get around to posting the pics. Numbers on the base are different. Aside from that, if they are copies they are direct copies. I did notice a minor difference in the C pillar on the Ferraris, have to look close to notice. Otherwise, size in all dimensions is the same, except one seems to ride a little higher than the other, and with these guys that can be due to playwear...so I ignored that. Wheels are different. Summer has chrome base, the supposed Gingell does not. And I did clearly see what Dean was writing about regarding crudeness, there is an unmistakable difference around the windows and such that on the Summer...even though "simple" at least looked clean, whereas the Gingell had numerous bumps and bruises...either well worn out tool or simply not made well to begin with. The Porsches had the same story, other than I noticed no differences between them as far as the body lines overall. Otherwise, the bumps and bruises vs clean surfaces noticeable mostly on the windows. Wheels were different, again slight height difference...possibly to playwear, so ignored. Numbers on bases were not the same. Now...just for further consideration, Summer is noted in the database as having multiple numbers for various castings...more like a series number rather than a casting number as we tend to think of them. Some models may have half a dozen numbers assigned to them over time. I'm not sure if this may have any impact on the discussion, apart from that being something I noticed working on the database. I'm wondering if Summer may sell off their old tools and make more as they go, updating and "improving" as time goes by, and as tools wear out they sell them...ostensibly to a company like Gingell? Just a thought. |
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| juantoo3 | Jun 11 2017, 09:35 PM Post #22 |
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Following up with pics:![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Porsche 944 comparison |
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| juantoo3 | Jun 11 2017, 09:41 PM Post #23 |
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![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Ferrari 308 comparison Does anyone know who made the green version? |
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| Mark F. | Jun 12 2017, 09:07 AM Post #24 |
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Minivan
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The green one is from Tai Cheong. |
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| juantoo3 | Jun 12 2017, 07:30 PM Post #25 |
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Thank you Mark for the ID on the Tai Cheong. With your permission (since you provided the model list), I think it would be easiest simply to move this thread to the database once we get this sorted, and edit the unnecessary conversation...for future reference. |
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